Daisys growth

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Re: Daisys growth

Postby vikki01 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:17 pm

Daisy is most definitely not happy about being woken to have photos!! :D
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Vikki.
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:44 pm

vikki01 wrote:Daisy is most definitely not happy about being woken to have photos!! :D
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Vikki.


I might well be wrong, but this tortoise might well be an ibera/marginata cross.
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby Tortoise Trust » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:39 pm

It is a North African (Moroccan) descent T. g. graeca

No trace of marginata.
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby vikki01 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:55 pm

Thanks both for Identifying her. What are the implications of her being able to live with Herbie in the long run? Just to check - care/feeding/hibernation all exactly the same? Any advice about slowing growth if necessary? As said before it isn't a problem what she is (I just can't believe that twice now I have been sold a different tortoise to what was stated!! and this time I thought I had at least got that bit right!) I have space to accommodate Daisy separately long term if needed but had been hoping not to have to!!
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby Stuart » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:44 pm

vikki01 wrote: I had been in contact with the person I got her from before going as I travelled quite a distance thinking this was the right place/tortoise. I was informed before going that she was 4cm(!) and requested photos which did not show the accelerated growth. I was quite amazed at her size when I saw her ...
Vikki.


This is an interesting story, which surely raises some questions about the breeder.
Was this tortoise really home-bred? If so, how is it that the breeder does not know the date of hatch? Is it just very poor record keeping, or simply a mistake?
Or was it the case that the 4cm tortoise (which could have hatched this January) was no longer available, for whatever reason, and you were offered an older animal from the previous year?

In which case it's a bit sloppy, to say the least, to describe the age and size of an animal to a customer who has to travel some distance to collect, and then to sell the customer what appears to be an entirely different animal.
Stuart
Hermanns (old female and 6 home-bred offspring), iberas (two), kbn (rescue), leopard, horsfield (rescue), stars (2 - long term loan), red-eared sliders (5)
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby vikki01 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:05 am

Yes it is unbelievable as this is the 2nd time it has happened to me! Herbie was initially sold to me as a Hermann but turned out to be an Ibera, he was also said to be 6 months but was only 17 grams when I got him. I think that was possibly how I got drawn in this time as I thought I had been much more careful but assumed that Herbie had always been small and Daisy was on the large side!! This person had 3 of these tortoises of the same size so not sure that it was a case of "mistaking" one!! As I said fortunately for me it is a major issue but for others it may have been. I believe it does raise questions about the breeder but possibly raises more questions about the system/certificates etc?
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby Stuart » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:19 pm

vikki01 wrote:This person had 3 of these tortoises of the same size so not sure that it was a case of "mistaking" one!!
Vikki.


I'm struggling to understand how you could have been told that the tortoise you were going for was only 4cm long, and when you got there, presumably believing you were about to buy a very recently hatched baby tortoise, you were offered one of three substantially bigger tortoises.

Did you not ask about the tiny one which had been described to you? What was the explanation?

And then you have been given incorrect paperwork. Doesn't that constitute an offence somewhere along the line?

Also I note that you say the certificate has the hatch date 1/12/14 - 23/1/15. That seems a bit vague: that's nearly two months difference. If these were eggs from the same nest, I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much difference between first and last to hatch - in my experience, and if memory serves, all viable eggs hatched within a few days of each other at most.
But perhaps the breeder incubated a mixed group of eggs, and then didn't have a means of tracking which baby tortoise hatched when?
But that's academic, since the certificate you were given clearly doesn't match the tortoise you bought.

Is it the system which is at fault here, or are you dealing with at best an incompetent breeder who either can't measure a tortoise, or can't read the dates on certificates, or at worst a dishonest and manipulative breeder who encouraged you to travel to collect a tortoise which either never existed or was no longer available.

Could this breeder be someone selling on tortoises bred elsewhere? In which case, who was the real breeder?

I say all this because I'm currently looking after a tortoise bought from a local petshop, whose paperwork had the name of the holder/breeder crossed out in black felt tip pen, but which was still legible. (It should have been issued with new paperwork in the name of the petshop from whom it was purchased, I think.) Turns out this tortoise came from a well-known "pet centre" who claimed to breed their own tortoises, but who were widely believed to be merely retailers of Captive Farmed tortoises from one of the many large commercial tortoise farms...

...so you can't be too careful!
Stuart
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby vikki01 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:35 pm

Hi it is a difficult one to answer.
The breeder came across as very plausible and showed me what was supposed to be both parents and other relatives. The address on the certificate is the one I went to. Should I have questioned it more?- probably yes but judging by eye she certainly looked big but having been used to Herbie who is small I didn't really pick up on how big she really was - it was only when I got home and compared the two and then measured and weighed her that I realised how big she is - stupid really I know but I guess I decided whilst there that it wouldn't really be a problem if she was a bit bigger than Herbie. My concern is both with some breeders and the system that is supposed to be protecting the tortoises. A system that is so easily exploited unfortunately will be by those unscrupulous enough to do so. What Daisy is and her age fortunately isn't a major problem for me and I guess unless I did my research and asked for advice I would probably not be any wiser as to her age or sub species and this is probably how so many of the more dodgy transactions continue to happen - I thought I was wiser this time but still got proved wrong:(
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby vikki01 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:13 pm

What would be the implications of Herbie and Daisy being able to share accommodation in the future - I realise different species shouldn't be mixed, does this also apply to sub species. I know never to breed but this wouldn't happen if they were compatible anyway!! It is not a problem to keep them separate but obviously if it wouldn't cause any issues it would be good to have them share until such a time that they can be sexed/need seperating. Thanks.
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Re: Daisys growth

Postby Tortoise Trust » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:33 am

Yes. Are they 'subspecies'? Not as far as I am concerned. In my view they are very definitely different species. Totally different, and ibera and N. african should never mix, regardless of what one chooses to call them or classify them as.
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