New feeding article based on recent field studies

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New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Tortoise Trust » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:18 am

Dietary Fibre in the diet of the Herbivorous Tortoise Testudo graeca graeca in Spain: Some implications for captive husbandry

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietaryfibre.html

Feel free to comment.
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Joan » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:35 am

Good stuff Andy -most interesting reading. Logic told me that Pancakes must eat dried weeds at least part of the season especially as I know mine will always eat and seem to enjoy any uneaten dried food that they find the following day. I leave it for that reason.

I did try them with some from this range http://shop.burnspet.com/BrowseCustom/B ... imal_Range but stopped because I wasn't sure I was doing the right thing! I should have asked you at the time! ;)
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby chrissy » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:59 am

Thank you. Very interesting findings Andy et al. Do you therefore think we should start including some of the dried food, that you mentioned, in our tortises' diets? This would help out quite considerably with the overwintering feeding regime, if it means having to feed less fresh green food.

If the answer is yes, how would you manage addition of the dried food to what we are already offering and what ratio would be be aiming for?
Thanks, Andy.
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Janet » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:11 pm

How would you dry them in the UK :?:

I have read many debates on different groups about the benefit of feeding artifically dried weeds, most seem to be against it.

EDIT: Just had time to read the article all the way through and see that my question will remain unanswered until further research is carried out on the best way and plants to dry out.
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Christinep » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:03 pm

I found this very interesting reading indeed. I have had a tortoise for 47 years which you have identified as a Moroccan, I used to get quite frustrated when, at times, she would ignore the fresh food I had given her, preferring to rustle about in the garden eating dried food she didn't eat when I offered it to her fresh !!!

Through time I relaxed about this as it did not seem to do her any harm and I decided that she 'knew best'. Which she obviously did. Other times she ignores the dried food and relishes the fresh.

Has anyone else noticed their tortoises doing this ?

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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Tortoise Trust » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:00 pm

In a nutshell, from an entirely practical perspective, I think that the Alpin Testudo products are very good. I cannot say they are "perfect", exactly, as I really do think we need to do more work on establishing the exact moisture contents, balances, and such of the wild diet - but they are without doubt in a totally different league than the mass produced "junk food" pellet type diets we are so unfortunately familiar with. Totally avoid anything containing products that result in rapid fermentation: that means fine base grinds, cereal derivatives, molasses, sugars and things of that nature. The Alpin Testudo range is also properly quality controlled, with far more honest labeling than is usual in the reptile food industry. If using this type of product, look for long, coarse fibres, the absence of cereal ingredients, and a protein content below 10% on a dry matter basis. I agree with Jordi that the Alpin Pre-Testudo is well worth trying.

I have absolutely no connection whatsoever with them, by the way. So I am not saying this for any personal advantage. I have never even had any contact with them. I do, however, think they have developed by far the best source of safe, dry food on the market. That opinion is based purely upon an analysis of their ingredients and some trial reports from users all over Europe over the past few years (long enough to demonstrate some impressive real-world results, for example Per-Ander's tortoises).

So - I'd say give it a try and see how you get on. In particular, start comparing:

1) Faecal pellet consistency
2) Growth rates
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Eversfield » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:31 pm

Tortoise Trust wrote:Dietary Fibre in the diet of the Herbivorous Tortoise Testudo graeca graeca in Spain: Some implications for captive husbandry

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietaryfibre.html

Feel free to comment.

Very interesting article, the study of "stools", is something many, in animal husbandry advocate. I can remember my Great grandfather, a classic cattle stockman from Suffolk, of the very old school used to tell me that the health of his Cattle could be assessed by field walking and looking at Cow pat's. The quality of pooh told him is the animals were "in good order". To this day, the sight of healthy looking scats from Tortoises and Turtles is a very good indicator that all is well.
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Belinda » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:53 pm

Eversfield wrote:
Tortoise Trust wrote:Dietary Fibre in the diet of the Herbivorous Tortoise Testudo graeca graeca in Spain: Some implications for captive husbandry

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietaryfibre.html

Feel free to comment.

Very interesting article, the study of "stools", is something many, in animal husbandry advocate. I can remember my Great grandfather, a classic cattle stockman from Suffolk, of the very old school used to tell me that the health of his Cattle could be assessed by field walking and looking at Cow pat's. The quality of pooh told him is the animals were "in good order". To this day, the sight of healthy looking scats from Tortoises and Turtles is a very good indicator that all is well.

It's not just cattle turtles and tortoises :D
Belinda x
_______
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Jordi » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:03 pm

These are the promised pictures of faeces in Tuula’s thread (I post them here because it is related with the article) . The last one is the agrobs pellets after soaking them. They look quite similar to the faeces!
Image
Image
Image

With two Horsfieldii hatchlings that I had three years ago, there was a slight pyramiding in spite of feeding a weed diet and keeping them outside in a pen in a Mediterranean country. In a previous thread it was said that Horsfieldiis together with T.kleinmanni are two of the species more difficult to grow smooth, both from harsh environments, both with long rest periods. This article shows the importance of feeding cycles in the species that aestivate or hibernate, as well as the digestibility of the food that we offer. This was my mistake, I think.
Kuzmin, in his book “Turtles of Russia and other ex-soviet republics” says, regarding Horsfieldiis slow growth:
In Tajikistan, a female at the age of nine years only slightly exceeds 100mm in length, and individuals 10 years old are no more than 118 mm

This also promises interesting stuff:

“combination of behaviour and environmental factors involved, specifically with regard to hatchlings and young juveniles, where behaviour and exposure differs markedly from that of adults. The basking temperatures, activity patterns and UVB exposure levels during early growth phases are especially critical to long-term healthy development (Highfield, in preparation)”


Eversfield wrote:Very interesting article, the study of "stools", is something many, in animal husbandry advocate. I can remember my Great grandfather, a classic cattle stockman from Suffolk, of the very old school used to tell me that the health of his Cattle could be assessed by field walking and looking at Cow pat's. The quality of pooh told him is the animals were "in good order". To this day, the sight of healthy looking scats from Tortoises and Turtles is a very good indicator that all is well.


Belinda wrote:It's not just cattle turtles and tortoises


There is a Catalan saying that goes:
Menja bé i caga fort: “eat well and shit hard”

Jordi
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Re: New feeding article based on recent field studies

Postby Eversfield » Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:14 pm

Jordi wrote:These are the promised pictures of faeces in Tuula’s thread (I post them here because it is related with the article) . The last one is the agrobs pellets after soaking them. They look quite similar to the faeces!
Image
Image
Image

With two Horsfieldii hatchlings that I had three years ago, there was a slight pyramiding in spite of feeding a weed diet and keeping them outside in a pen in a Mediterranean country. In a previous thread it was said that Horsfieldiis together with T.kleinmanni are two of the species more difficult to grow smooth, both from harsh environments, both with long rest periods. This article shows the importance of feeding cycles in the species that aestivate or hibernate, as well as the digestibility of the food that we offer. This was my mistake, I think.
Kuzmin, in his book “Turtles of Russia and other ex-soviet republics” says, regarding Horsfieldiis slow growth:
In Tajikistan, a female at the age of nine years only slightly exceeds 100mm in length, and individuals 10 years old are no more than 118 mm

This also promises interesting stuff:

“combination of behaviour and environmental factors involved, specifically with regard to hatchlings and young juveniles, where behaviour and exposure differs markedly from that of adults. The basking temperatures, activity patterns and UVB exposure levels during early growth phases are especially critical to long-term healthy development (Highfield, in preparation)”


Eversfield wrote:Very interesting article, the study of "stools", is something many, in animal husbandry advocate. I can remember my Great grandfather, a classic cattle stockman from Suffolk, of the very old school used to tell me that the health of his Cattle could be assessed by field walking and looking at Cow pat's. The quality of pooh told him is the animals were "in good order". To this day, the sight of healthy looking scats from Tortoises and Turtles is a very good indicator that all is well.


Belinda wrote:It's not just cattle turtles and tortoises


There is a Catalan saying that goes:
Menja bé i caga fort: “eat well and shit hard”

Jordi

I will remember that quote when I next visit Barcelona. I know an excellent restaurant, just off Los Ramblers, called Los Caracoles. My last visit to Barcelona, was a pilgrimage to this wonderful place!!
:lol:
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