Please ID my tort :)

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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby emir44 » Tue May 12, 2015 1:51 pm

Do you people seriously think I feed the tortoise chicken? Do you think anyone that feeds a trotise with chicken would bother registering on this forum and asking to ID his tort? Stuart is the only one who realised I was just making an ironic joke..... good lord. I am regretting it now. I am really surprised I was taken seriously.

@Tortoisetrust - In terms of the keratin thickness, the tort looked like this when I bought it, but with the same lack of smoothness. The shell was never smooth like in the picture you sent.
I know what I'll do, tomorrow imma gonna go get some fine grit sandpaper and smooth the shell out. ;) (lets see who's gonna take this seriously.)

Diet
I am feeding it only with dandelions, clover, some rocket and plantain and some other plants. I have already said this. I give the tortoise about half a handful a day, which is 2-3 dandelion leaves and maybe 10-15 clovers. He usually eats it all. I try to make it hungry once in a while as I assume that's what it experiences in the wild. I make it hungry by feeding it just a bit one day, or skipping one day in a few weeks entirely.
I sprinkle a bit of calcium powder or grate a bit of cuttlefish bone on the food once or twice a week. I

Tell me what I am doing wrong and I will correct it. Should I feed it even less? Less calcium powder? All I got is criticism without any actual suggestions what to do.

@Vikki.
To be honest I am just disgusted that someone can make so many bad mistakes and be so blatant about it and then basically have a go at people who question them. To fuel a cruel trade, carry out illegal smuggling, provide inadequate accommodation, incorrect diet etc etc defies belief. I am just gobsmacked and could continue but really don't feel I can in a polite manner so will leave it there.
Vikki.

So many bady mistakes? Fual a cruel trade? Inadeqaute accommodation, incorrect diet? I have done nothing of what you mention. I would appreciate it if you would target your powerless frustration somewhere else.
I have done nothing to offend anyone and have cme on the forum with good intentions. All I got was a lot of flame for doing something I did from the heart and the best way I could. I have had the tort for 3 years now. Its doing fine, its active, it eats, digs and climbs and poops regularly. I must be doing something right.

In terms of the smuggling. Anyone who actually thinks my act of smuggling a single tortoise has influenced anything in any regard needs to think again.
You WILL NOT change the global problems by changing a single light-bulb and criticizing the neighbor who doesn't recycle. That's just petty suburban nonsense. Problems are solved by doing something. Go out and protest and don't pour all your hate on the person who isn't part of the problem,but rather just an easy target for frustrations. Go criticize China and Brazil instead of poor old Mrs. Smith for not separating the aluminum cans from the plastic waste. Stop being so self-righteous. EARN the right to tell others what is right.

Animal smuggling is the same. I have smuggled an animal whose chances of a decent life were somewhere around 1-5%. Have I inspired the guy who sold it to me to pick another one from the wild? Oh give me a break. If I didn't bought it another tourist would have. Another tourist who would would be most likely a 5 year old boy or girl whose parents would value the life of the tortoise no more than a supermarket toy and see it as a method to shut up their spoiled brat for a few days.
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby vikki01 » Tue May 12, 2015 7:56 pm

If you want to justify to yourself that what you did was right then feel free to carry on but don't expect others to agree with you.
If you also want to believe that your current accommodation is sufficient year round for a tortoise of that size then again that is your choice but again I can not and will not agree. Most people on here want help and advice or to share experiences they do not feel the need to wind people up hence why it tends to get taken as the truth when you write something. With regards bothering to register on the forum then perhaps you could have done so 3 years ago when you first got the tortoise if you were that concerned about its welfare.
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby Stuart » Wed May 13, 2015 11:47 pm

emir44 wrote: don't pour all your hate on the person who isn't part of the problem,but rather just an easy target for frustrations.....In terms of the smuggling. Anyone who actually thinks my act of smuggling a single tortoise has influenced anything in any regard needs to think again.


Well, if "the problem" is the pet trade itself, it's not so easy to distance oneself from it, is it? Actually anyone who who buys a tortoise from a pet shop or a street trader is part of the problem - because each purchase inevitably supports and perpetuates the trade. To argue that if I hadn't bought it, someone else would have done, doesn't really absolve one from being involved in that trade.

If the trade is in wild caught animals, then that takes the problem to another level.

And if animals are illegally imported, then the whole thing becomes even more problematic. I suspect that smuggling a single tortoise, whilst obviously not as high-impact as a commercial operation involving multiple animals, nonetheless does have some influence. It's naive to think otherwise, I think. Even more so if one then tries to justify or advocate the practice. (After all, if everyone imported just one WC tortoise...etc)

So I'm sorry, Emir44. You (and thousands of others, of course) are part of quite a big problem, which the Tortoise Trust takes very seriously. And given that hackles were almost bound to be raised by your admission of how you obtained your tortoise, this probably wasn't the best place to joke about the chicken and whey powder diet...

As for the actual diet, it doesn't sound too bad, actually, but perhaps there's not enough calcium. As Andy says, a bit a couple of times a week is probably not enough. Most of us in the UK grossly underestimate the need for calcium, which would be obtained at the correct levels in a wild diet because of the nature of the plants and the calcium-rich substrates in which they grow.
Stuart
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby emir44 » Thu May 14, 2015 5:44 pm

Actually anyone who who buys a tortoise from a pet shop or a street trader is part of the problem - because each purchase inevitably supports and perpetuates the trade. To argue that if I hadn't bought it, someone else would have done, doesn't really absolve one from being involved in that trade.


I never tried to absolve myself from being part of the trade. I know I was a part of it and I did what I did willingly and consciously.
What mattered to me was the life of the tortoise at that moment - That was something I could influence.
The pet trade is not something I can influence. The tortoise trust and anyone else, including myself can be against it all day long but it probably wont disappear for the next couple of hundred years. If ever.
To think that a single purchase influences anything is naive. To appreciate a single life is noble. ž

If a beggar was asking you for money and you knew the beggar was extremely hungry, would you think about the big picture and about not encouraging the practice or begging, or would you think about feeding a hungry soul? What is more noble and more humane?

Buying or not buying my tortoise would have had 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 impact on the tortoise trade. I like to think that I saved one life. What everyone else thinks matters not to me.

I care and love all animals very much, and sometimes appreciate them more then humans. Animals are incapable of doing evil and are ever innocent. Humans often put their own interest and pride far too high on their priority list. This thread is a typical example of that. I hate to admit it but I was pretty upset by the fact that I somehow was seen as an animal abuser on this forum. I assure you it is the first time it happened to me in my entire life.

About my joke.....humor, they say is the highest form of intelligence. I find mild good-natured humor to always be approriate. Those incapable of understanding jokes should blame no one but their own capacities. This is a forum and not a funeral. If a forum isn't an appropriate place to make a joke, what is then? But since I am neither its founder, owner, moderator or a memeber of esteem, I will make no more inappropriate jokes. I will limit my self to "why did the chicken cross the road" jokes. I am certain no one will misunderstand those.
So........ why did the chicken cross the road? To be eaten by the tortoise as a part of a healthy tortoise diet. :lol:

In the interest of my tortoise I think its best that we agree to disagree and set aside our opinions. To the tort they matter not and wont make its life better or worse. I think what I think and I have the right to do so, just like you or anyone else on this forum and the rest of the planet.

Lets solve what is important. The calcium and feeding.
Question 1: I feed the tortoise everyday and skip a day once in two weeks. Should I feed it less often? I don't feed it much. All the plants are fresh picked from the outside and grow wild.
Question 2: Calcium powder. How often is often enough? Three times a week?
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby Stuart » Thu May 14, 2015 6:33 pm

emir44 wrote:Question 1: I feed the tortoise everyday and skip a day once in two weeks. Should I feed it less often? I don't feed it much. All the plants are fresh picked from the outside and grow wild.
Question 2: Calcium powder. How often is often enough? Three times a week?


How are you delivering the calcium? Andy recommends Nutrobal and suggests it should be used daily in low UVB areas. (Apparently it isn't possibly to OD calcium - what isn't absorbed is passed out.)

Here's an extract from a TT article about feeding tortoises:

"".....the only thing we add to this [winter mix] diet for Mediterranean tortoises is a sprinkling of either Nutrobal or Vionate daily. Again, we go for variety here, and out of a seven day regime for adult tortoises we use Nutrobal on three days, Vionate on one day, and the remaining day we leave free of supplements. This ensures a very wide range of trace elements and vitamins are delivered, without any danger of over-dosing.

To better support the higher calcium demand of growing tortoises, juveniles are supplemented daily, use Nutrobal six days (formulated with a slightly higher calcium content) and Vionate (with a wide range of trace minerals) once a week. If you use high output UV-B lamps such as mercury vapour “UV-Heat” type lamps, you might want to reduce the use of supplements containing vitamin-D3 and rely upon pure calcium carbonate instead and ‘natural’ synthesis, though we would recommend providing at least some D3 orally as lamps can be unpredictable." (Full article at http://www.tortoisetrust.org/enews/ )

Hope this helps!
Stuart
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby emir44 » Mon May 18, 2015 9:07 am

Thanks Stuart, it definitely helps. The article is really useful.

I really like the Opuntia cactus idea, I can get that easily. My winter feeding so far was freezing large amounts of clover, dandelion, etc. and the unfreezing a bit at a time over winter. Maybe not enough vitamins because of freezing?

I am currently delivering the calcium by scraping cuttlesifh bone over the leaves. The tort will never touch the cuttlefish bone on its own.

I am now worried a bit about the constriction ring that my tort has and the tort in Andy'y picture doesn't. As I said my tort had it once I got it. Most likely the seller's to blame because when i was buying it he told me to just feed it green salad and tomato. He was most likely feeding it that for the several years he had it before he sold it.
Can I at least somehow reduce the constriction ring? Maybe as the tort grows it will reduce itself a bit?
I will make some new photos and dig out old ones. Will reisze them so its easier to upload and view.

The problem with Nutrobal and Vioante is getting them into my country. I face a paradox when trying to get anything for animals that isn't already on our market. The customs wants veterinary documents (something like a perscription saying my animal needs exactly that) which the veterinarian cant provide because the stuff isn't on the market and is deemed "unapproved" as such. A very stupid administrative paradox.
I faced this when I was getting the UVB lights and calcium powder into the country. I ended up having to bribe the customs officer to get it in. They would have destroyed it without the veterinary documents. I find this stupid....if its approved in the UK, which has higher standards, it should be automatically approved here....blah...red tape

Maybe I should smuggle in the Nutrobal and Vionate :) I seem to be good at it :) .........Anyone? Come on, lets drop the seriousness and have a laugh about it :)
Know of any online stores that ship Nutrobal or Vionate internationally?
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby Tortoise Trust » Mon May 18, 2015 9:28 am

The problem with cuttlefish is that is is very high in phosphorus - when what you actually need is a phosphorus-free source of calcium, for example, pure calcium carbonate.

You can often obtain this at agricultural stores. They use it for sheep, goats and cattle. It is very cheap...a kilo is only a few Euros. Just check the ingredients and make sure it is plain, ordinary calcium supplement. If you use this, and provide natural UV-B from sunlight, that is sufficient anywhere in the Mediterranean zone.

In the wild, tortoises get their calcium from:

Plants grown on calcium rich soil
Empty (white) snail shells
Small calcium-rich stones

I would think any vet could also obtain pure calcium carbonate powder for you too, but it is almost certainly available at agricultural feed suppliers as all farmers use it.
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby emir44 » Mon May 18, 2015 11:14 am

You can often obtain this at agricultural stores. They use it for sheep, goats and cattle. It is very cheap...a kilo is only a few Euros. Just check the ingredients and make sure it is plain, ordinary calcium supplement. If you use this, and provide natural UV-B from sunlight, that is sufficient anywhere in the Mediterranean zone.


I didnt know about this at all. Very useful informaton. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. Will hit agriculturas stores and try to find pure calcium carbonate. Will get rid of the cuttlefish bone.
If I get the calcium carbonate I can do without Nutrobal or Vionate over winter?
Any hopes of reducing the shell deformities?
More pictures coming tonight as soon as I get out from work.
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Re: Please ID my tort :)

Postby Bigjoe » Mon May 18, 2015 6:34 pm

maybe this will not be a problem to ship to you..
http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Calcium ... B004421K68
Hope this helps
Joe
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