Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Reports and discussions on all aspects of tortoise and turtle conservation.

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Chris Newman » Fri May 29, 2009 12:37 pm

Andy,

I am unaware that JNCC inspected Mr Linley, I will ask Allison to confirm if this is true or not. So I assume from your comments you believe that you are the only person in the world qualified to give ‘expert opinion’ on weather a tortoise farm is legitimate or not, or weather it meets CITES criteria or not, despite the CITES Secretariat approving its status - extraordinary.

For the record the farm in Slovenia is inspected by three separate bodies annually within the Slovenian Government, it has been inspected by CITES, as well as German scientific authority, British scientific authority and according to you these are all fools who don’t know there jobs, and only you are capable of doing this ‘inspection’ - in synopsis that is what you have said – extraordinary.

In view of the above, and the mere fact you implied the Slovenia CITES authority is incompetent and corrupt, you wonder why you have not been invited to do an inspection! Words fail me……..

Chris
Chris Newman
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:06 pm

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Chris Newman » Fri May 29, 2009 12:49 pm

Andy,

This debate has been exceedingly useful from my perspective, and indeed I am sure from some of the others who have followed this debate with interest.

I must thank you for all of the information that you have provided, especially the police report which I was oblivious to. This has proven most interesting and useful and I will take some of the points up with the Minister.

Clearly my presence on this forum is causing you and indeed some others discomfort, I will therefore gracefully bow out and leave you all to your own little private world.

With very best regards,
Chris Newman
Chris Newman
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:06 pm

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tortoise Trust » Fri May 29, 2009 4:25 pm

Chris Newman wrote:Andy,

I am unaware that JNCC inspected Mr Linley, I will ask Allison to confirm if this is true or not. So I assume from your comments you believe that you are the only person in the world qualified to give ‘expert opinion’ on weather a tortoise farm is legitimate or not, or weather it meets CITES criteria or not, despite the CITES Secretariat approving its status - extraordinary.

For the record the farm in Slovenia is inspected by three separate bodies annually within the Slovenian Government, it has been inspected by CITES, as well as German scientific authority, British scientific authority and according to you these are all fools who don’t know there jobs, and only you are capable of doing this ‘inspection’ - in synopsis that is what you have said – extraordinary.


It is a real pity that you yet again indulge in fabricating outright lies, Chris. In my opinion you are a fantasist, an exaggerator (your comments about the RSPCA supporting "terrorists" fall into this category) ,and you do yourself and your cause no credit.

I have never at any time remotely suggested that I am the only person "capable" of doing an inspection. To claim otherwise is, I am afraid, yet another product of your over-fertile and wild imagination. Far from it. I have previously stated very clearly and in public that if these "farms" wished to remove the cloud of suspicion hanging over them what they should do is invite a team of independent chelonian specialists from the leading European herpetological groups to inspect their operations and records.

That would clear the air once and for all. This should be done openly, not in secret, and the results should be published.

I think most reasonable people would agree that anything less is not going to be regarded as satisfactory.

Andy
Tortoise Trust
 
Posts: 8895
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:07 pm
Location: Almeria, Spain

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Nadine Highfield » Fri May 29, 2009 5:13 pm

I am very surprised to hear this was not his first offence, I would be most grateful if you could supply me with details of his former conviction as I am entirely oblivious to this fact.


He continued to engage in illegal activity while on bail: http://www.westmercia.police.uk/press/TelfordTortoiseTrader.htm

"Whilst on police bail and under investigation for illegal sales of Annex ‘A’ tortoises, enquiries by NWCU and AH officials showed that Johnson bought a further 200 x Hermanns tortoises illegally, which had been sold on without valid permits."


Quote:
Do you mean that a certain number of wild tortoises should be able to be taken from the wild, provided their collection does not endanger wild populations? If that is indeed what you have in mind, which species do you believe the trade should be able to collect, for what purposes (ie., direct trade, breeding stock) and how would you actually ensure that it is sustainable? Tortoises have a very slow reproductive rate, with low population recruitment rates in the areas they inhabit, and this makes assessing risks to any given population very difficult to ascertain. I would also say that the animal trade's history, and the way it has decimated wild populations of animals across the world, does not inspire confidence. So, I'm asking you for specifics on how you would proceed if given the opportunity?
[/quote]

That is the principles of sustainable utilization. As for the suitable species, that is for the various scientific authorities to decided and issue quotes – the whole purpose of CITES!


You defend criminals who have been convicted of illegally trading in endangered species, and complain when they're jailed. So, I wasn’t sure that you had much respect for CITES. Just as you have stated here that you support the Tortoise Trust, and then lie about our organisation's policies. And in your report for the defense of the jailed dealer, you tried to minimise the illegal trade of tortoises, by giving figures that represented only a fraction of the actual number of tortoises seized by Customs. So, I thought you might have your own interpretation on sustainable utilisation as well. But yes, I agree... that the protection of wild tortoises should be left to the scientists and those sincerely dedicated to their conservation.

Nadine
Nadine Highfield
 
Posts: 452
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: Spain

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tamie Milne » Fri May 29, 2009 5:17 pm

Hilarious!! As far as I can tell there was only one person showing 'discomfort' - someone who clearly did not like being questioned and corrected when outrageous lies told!

Equally hilarious is the 'private world' comment, did he miss the fact that this is an internet forum ... :lol:

Tamie

Chris Newman wrote:Andy,

This debate has been exceedingly useful from my perspective, and indeed I am sure from some of the others who have followed this debate with interest.

I must thank you for all of the information that you have provided, especially the police report which I was oblivious to. This has proven most interesting and useful and I will take some of the points up with the Minister.

Clearly my presence on this forum is causing you and indeed some others discomfort, I will therefore gracefully bow out and leave you all to your own little private world.
With very best regards,
Chris Newman
Tamie Milne
 
Posts: 2049
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby suej » Fri May 29, 2009 5:42 pm

What am I going to read at work now that Chris has thrown in the towel :shock: , oh well back to teaching Lily Savage [my Horsfield] to fetch a ball
suej
 
Posts: 2442
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:52 pm

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Chris Newman » Sat May 30, 2009 1:46 pm

Tamie Milne wrote:Hilarious!! As far as I can tell there was only one person showing 'discomfort' - someone who clearly did not like being questioned and corrected when outrageous lies told!

Equally hilarious is the 'private world' comment, did he miss the fact that this is an internet forum ... :lol:

Tamie

Chris Newman wrote:Andy,

This debate has been exceedingly useful from my perspective, and indeed I am sure from some of the others who have followed this debate with interest.

I must thank you for all of the information that you have provided, especially the police report which I was oblivious to. This has proven most interesting and useful and I will take some of the points up with the Minister.

Clearly my presence on this forum is causing you and indeed some others discomfort, I will therefore gracefully bow out and leave you all to your own little private world.
With very best regards,
Chris Newman


Perhaps Tamie you would be as so kind as to inform me, and the rest of the world, specifically where I “told lies” – this is a very serious allegation.

I fully accept that people have differing views, and interpretations, but calling someone a liar is an entirely different issue. I may have my differences with Andy, I may question some of his view, or ideology, and I will even concede to ridiculing him on occasions, notwithstanding this I have treated him with respect. We might have differing views, and differing opinions, but at the end of the day we have the same objectives – welfare and preservation of animals. Now you may not like me, or what I have to say, you may disagree with me entirely – that is fine. But I will not be called a liar by you, or anyone.

Bottom line either prove where I have lied, or apologise. I chose to withdraw from this forum out of respect for others. But your comments are a step beyond the reasonable – the ball is in your court!
Chris Newman
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:06 pm

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tamie Milne » Sat May 30, 2009 5:47 pm

Tortoise Trust wrote:You are not entitled to lie.

You are lying. Your statement:

Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds. Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust [App.4],

Is untrue. Wrong. Demonstrably incorrect. False. Deceptive. Misleading. A lie.

I have said before, that is not and never has been the case. It is on the record.

I have, this morning, reread many, many pages of your writings on the Slovenian tortoise farm, I have yet to find one iota of support for this endeavour, in fact the reverse is true. Over the years you have made many truly outrageous claims regarding this farm. If as you suggest that I am being disingenuous with the facts please point me to any documents you have written that support this farm!

Are you serious? Read it. Then read it again and try to understand it this time.

As for your suggestion that I ‘continue to "represent" and defend the worst elements of the reptile trade’ – I find this statement highly repugnant

Do you? The judge and the police evidently disagree.

Andy


I think the above covers it quite nicely.

Tamie
Tamie Milne
 
Posts: 2049
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tortoise Trust » Sat May 30, 2009 6:02 pm

Chris Newman wrote:


Perhaps Tamie you would be as so kind as to inform me, and the rest of the world, specifically where I “told lies” – this is a very serious allegation.
But I will not be called a liar by you, or anyone.

Bottom line either prove where I have lied, or apologise. I[/quote]

Uh? Are you for real? How many times does it have to be pointed out?

You said:

Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds. Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust ....


You have now been told on countless occasions that this is untrue, it has never been true, it never WILL be true, that the true policy has been on our website for years (http://www.tortoisetrust.org/activities/policy.html) and has not changed. Good grief!

Here it is (yet) again:

a) The Tortoise Trust is not opposed to trade in tortoises or turtles, it is, however, opposed to unsustainable trade which damages natural populations. We believe that bulk trade in wild caught specimens should only be permitted when conclusive evidence can be presented that the trade in question is sustainable, and that no long term damage to natural population densities will result.

b) The Tortoise Trust accepts that people desire tortoises as pets and that this desire is unlikely to diminish. We believe that this requirement is best served by the development of commercial captive breeding programs. We further believe that captive breeding programs in the natural bioclimatic zones of the species in question are by far the most viable, and we also believe that the development of such programs would offer substantial benefits to local people and their economy. The development of properly monitored, scientifically based captive-breeding programs in third-world countries would have the potential to meet market demand for tortoises and turtles without collateral damage to wild populations.


You have claimed the complete opposite as a fact - in a report given to a court!! What is that? Here's a clue.

It is an untruth, falsehood, fib, fabrication, deception, invention, fiction, piece of fiction, falsification;whopper, taradiddle or, if you like, a calculated attempt to dissemble, dissimulate, misinform, mislead, perjure oneself, lie through one's teeth, stretch the truth or... I can think of a few others but the forum rules prohibit me going there.

Hope that is now clear.

You best option is to admit you made a dreadful mistake and apologise.

Andy
Tortoise Trust
 
Posts: 8895
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:07 pm
Location: Almeria, Spain

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Nadine Highfield » Sat May 30, 2009 9:39 pm

Now you may not like me, or what I have to say, you may disagree with me entirely – that is fine. But I will not be called a liar by you, or anyone.


Chris,

It has been made abundantly clear that you made false statements in your report for the defense. If I were you, I wouldn’t be asking for apologies. I’d be making them...

The statement that you made about the Tortoise Trust was false. Given that you consider yourself as an expert, and was obviously viewed as such by the defense, many might say that it wasn’t a mistake - that it was a lie. And not just a lie, but considering your pro-trade stance, a statement that could be seen by most reasonable people as an attempt to discredit an organisation. Now, if it was just a mistake, and simply the result of poor research on your part, the wise thing for you to do would be apologise. But, no, you haven’t done that... In addition, that report was then (somehow) passed on to others who are now posting these lies on other tortoise forums. So, these false statements that you made about our organisation have now been published. And instead of making a public apology, you’re asking for one. Unbelievable...

One other important point. You have claimed that what you stated in your report was "an opinion". You did not express “an opinion”. You falsely stated something was fact. There is a substantive and critical difference.

Nadine
Nadine Highfield
 
Posts: 452
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: Spain

PreviousNext

Return to Chelonian Conservation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron