Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Reports and discussions on all aspects of tortoise and turtle conservation.

Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Chris Newman » Sun May 31, 2009 11:02 am

Tamie Milne wrote:
Tortoise Trust wrote:You are not entitled to lie.

You are lying. Your statement:

Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds. Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust [App.4],

Is untrue. Wrong. Demonstrably incorrect. False. Deceptive. Misleading. A lie.

I have said before, that is not and never has been the case. It is on the record.

I have, this morning, reread many, many pages of your writings on the Slovenian tortoise farm, I have yet to find one iota of support for this endeavour, in fact the reverse is true. Over the years you have made many truly outrageous claims regarding this farm. If as you suggest that I am being disingenuous with the facts please point me to any documents you have written that support this farm!

Are you serious? Read it. Then read it again and try to understand it this time.

As for your suggestion that I ‘continue to "represent" and defend the worst elements of the reptile trade’ – I find this statement highly repugnant

Do you? The judge and the police evidently disagree.

Andy


I think the above covers it quite nicely.

Tamie


I’m afraid not Tamie. You have made a very specific and defamatory statement that I lied – to do so is a very serious mater. The statement you refer to as ‘a lie’ is in fact a statement of my “opinion”, which I quantified and provided supporting documentation to substantiate my views, which incidentally remain unchanged. Your colleague’s attempts to divert attention from your statement is laudable, but inconsequential. I must insist that you either withdraw your statement or prove where I have lied! I suggest that you seek independent advice on this mater before responding.

Chris
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tortoise Trust » Sun May 31, 2009 1:00 pm

Chris Newman wrote:
I’m afraid not Tamie. You have made a very specific and defamatory statement that I lied – to do so is a very serious mater. The statement you refer to as ‘a lie’ is in fact a statement of my “opinion”, which I quantified and provided supporting documentation to substantiate my views, which incidentally remain unchanged. Your colleague’s attempts to divert attention from your statement is laudable, but inconsequential. I must insist that you either withdraw your statement or prove where I have lied! I suggest that you seek independent advice on this mater before responding.

Chris


Mr Newman,

You lied. Period.

Tamie is perfectly entitled to point that out. So is everyone else. You could have got yourself off the hook over this, much earlier, very easily, by simply admitting that you made a very serious error in the "report" that you submitted to the Court wherein you used these words:

"Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds.Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust [App.4], and the Tortoise Protection Group [App.5]. The latter group appears to principally comprise UK based breeders aggrieved at the reduction in the retail price of tortoises. In recent years the increase in production from non-UK tortoise farms has seen the retail price for tortoises has drop from £250-£300 to as low as £125, with wholesale prices considerable less."

Your falsehoods are highlighted (in red). These are, Mr. Newman, unequivocally statements of alleged FACT by you, and not of OPINION.

The sections highlighted in blue are mere OPINION and speculation on your part.

The key phrase is your assertion (which is wholly untrue as we have already demonstrated at great length) that The Tortoise Trust "oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean tortoises".

This claim by you is completely wrong. It is an invention on your part. We actually support the development of a sustainable, ethical trade in captive-bred animals as an alternative to the 'greater evil' of the wild-caught trade. This has been our position for many, many years. I have said this in print, online and verbally in lectures repeatedly. It has been on our website since October 2002 for anyone who bothered to check their facts to see.

Given your threats against Tamie, I am now left with only two possible conclusions:

1) Your original false statement was motivated by malice and was a quite deliberate attempt to deceive.

or

2) You genuinely lack the ability to distinguish between facts and opinions.

There can be no other interpretations. In my opinion, most decent and responsible people, on being made aware of such an error would simply have retracted the false claim and apologised for the mistake. You have been made aware of it multiple times, but are willfully refusing to acknowledge your error, and indeed, are now compounding it.

I am afraid this places you in a very difficult and unenviable position.

People observing this have every right at this point to question your integrity. You have not done the right and honourable thing, but are seeking, via threats and bluster to silence your critics. This will not work.

For someone who places themselves in the position of giving "expert" evidence in criminal and civil cases, and who makes submissions to parliamentary committees, your current actions are dangerous indeed. Let there be no mistake. Your credibility and reputation are now on the line.

However you try to dress this up, it comes back to one simple thing.

Your report was false and misleading. There is no escaping this.

I would recommend that you spend some time researching the difference between what qualifies as a statement of fact, and an expression of opinion.

This may be of assistance to you:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/words/r ... ndex.shtml

In the meantime, you are going to have to sue an awful lot of people, because I have also stated that you lied about our position on this matter, and so has Nadine. We would have been disposed to treat is as simply the product of poor research and a very bad grasp English comprehension skills had you shown the slightest inclination to set the record straight.

It has now gone beyond that.

Andy
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tamie Milne » Sun May 31, 2009 1:15 pm

Chris Newman wrote:
I’m afraid not Tamie. You have made a very specific and defamatory statement that I lied – to do so is a very serious mater. The statement you refer to as ‘a lie’ is in fact a statement of my “opinion”, which I quantified and provided supporting documentation to substantiate my views, which incidentally remain unchanged. Your colleague’s attempts to divert attention from your statement is laudable, but inconsequential. I must insist that you either withdraw your statement or prove where I have lied! I suggest that you seek independent advice on this mater before responding.

Chris


Chris

I will NOT be seeking independant advise on this matter, I do not need to and neither will I be withdrawing my post from this forum.

There is one hell of a difference between 'opinion' and 'fact'. In your statement submitted you wrote:

"Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds. Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust [App.4],"

This it untrue. This is wrong. This is false, deceptive, misleading. A lie.

I politely suggest that you reconsider ever putting into a statement something that is your 'opinion' as if it is a 'fact', as you have done and admitted to by stating:

"The statement you refer to as ‘a lie’ is in fact a statement of my “opinion”"

A statement of opinion is VERY different to a statement of fact.

Do I take it from your post that you are threatening me with or taking legal action against me?

Tamie
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tortoise Trust » Sun May 31, 2009 1:23 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/words/r ... ndex.shtml


This is quite good. I just did it myself and scored 100% on all three sections :)

Andy
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby suej » Sun May 31, 2009 2:05 pm

Oh WOW you even get a certificate
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby lynn c » Sun May 31, 2009 2:31 pm

wow what a buzz 100% sure feels good :lol:
Lynn C
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Tortoise Trust » Sun May 31, 2009 2:56 pm

So, having now honed our skills we are easily able to assess the following statement:

"Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds.Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust [App.4], and the Tortoise Protection Group [App.5].

As this alludes to something that can be proven beyond doubt (by the simple test of reading what we have said on the subject) it is clearly a statement alleging a FACT and can in no way be regarded as merely opinion.

e.g. "An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence, but which cannot be proved with that evidence" (ref: Wikipedia)

It is also the case that if a statement can be categorically disproved (as this one has been) it also cannot be regarded as mere opinion but must be evaluated as an alleged fact.

As the alleged fact in question is totally untrue, Mr Newman is not entitled to criticise those who complain about what he has written, or those who refer to the paragraph in question as a lie - because it is.

Andy
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby lorna » Sun May 31, 2009 3:00 pm

Tortoise Trust wrote:So, having now honed our skills we are easily able to assess the following statement:

"Within the UK various pressure groups oppose the trade in imported captive bred specimens of Mediterranean Tortoises, this opposition being based on either ethical, or possibly financial, grounds.Two of the principle protagonists are the Tortoise Trust [App.4], and the Tortoise Protection Group [App.5].

As this alludes to something that can be proven beyond doubt (by the simple test of reading what we have said on the subject) it is clearly a statement alleging a FACT and can in no way be regarded as merely opinion.

e.g. "An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence, but which cannot be proved with that evidence" (ref: Wikipedia)

It is also the case that if a statement can be categorically disproved (as this one has been) it also cannot be regarded as mere opinion but must be evaluated as an alleged fact.

As the alleged fact in question is totally untrue, Mr Newman is not entitled to criticise those who complain about what he has written, or those who refer to the paragraph in question as a lie - because it is.

Andy


Seems perfectly clear to me.

Lorna
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby suej » Sun May 31, 2009 5:39 pm

Me too
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Re: Tortoise Dealer faces jail

Postby Chris Newman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:40 am

Tamie,

You can relax, I have no interesting in pursuing you for deformation or liable, but as you are aware I would have cast iron case. I leave such actions for other petty minded people who have no regards for the possible consequences. I have a far more benevolent attitude.

Andy,

I would have expected better from you, a lot better. Nevertheless it has been very interesting and edifying, not just for me but for all of the other people that have been watching this debate with interest – so than your curtsey.

With very best regards,
Chris

PS I will pop back from time to time…….. :)
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