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 Post subject: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:54 pm
Posts: 268
Location: Catalonia, Spain
Some pictures of Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat in North eastern Spain.

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I have been told that they often hide inside the brambles. You can hear them... but not touch!

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Jordi


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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:24 am 
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Location: Almeria, Spain
Excellent, Jordi.

Very similar to the habitat in S. France and quite different from our local T. g. graeca habitat!

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:45 am 
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I agree Andy, Jordi's excellent pictures show a very similar habitat, to that I have seen in southern France. The wonderful fortress like structure the Bramble provides is a perfect secure home for so much natural fauna. I have seen, in other parts of France large colonies of the european Tree Frog in "Briar" patch habitat.
Maybe, we should rewrite the Aesop fable, to extole the virtues of this marvellous shrub :idea: :?:
"Oh please don't keep me in the Briar patch, said the Garden Tortoise". :lol:
I wonder, if in the spring, when the vegetation is soft and green, do the T hermanni browse on this plant?

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:17 am 
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Location: Almeria, Spain
The "bramble" looks kind of like [i]Ziziphus lotus[i]. That said, it is not supposed to occur in Jordi's region at least according to this:

http://data.gbif.org/species/13763933

We certainly have it here (N. Almeria/S. Murcia) where it serves the same purpose - shelter and protection. They don't eat the leaves as far as I know, but they do eat the fallen fruit..

Oh, and humans too... as well as making Catalonian Bagpipes from the very hard and resilient wood! The fact the make these bagpipes in Catalonia rather suggests it MAY occur there! There you go... brambles to bagpipes to tortoises... the delights of natural history mysteries! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:36 pm 
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Location: porth, pontypridd
I only thouight hermanni hermanni were native to mallorca, how many species exist in mainland spain and what geographical areas do the species exist?

Marcus Gribble

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:47 am 
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Location: Almeria, Spain
Terrestrial: Testudo hermanni hermanni and Testudo graeca graeca
Freshwater aquatic: Mauremys leprosa and Emys orbicularis

If you Google these with "distribution+spain" that should give you a basic guide.

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:42 pm
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Location: Buxton, Derbyshire
Great photos Jordi. I have spent a fair amount of time in NE Spain. Whereabouts is this? From Andy's comments I'm guessing Catalunya :) ? I have done some field work in the upper Ebro valley and the Paramos.

That looks like regular bramble Rubus fruticosus to me!

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Location: Catalonia, Spain
Yes this is in Catalunya, in Girona province (North eastern Spain).
I will try to explain some interesting things that I have heard. If something is a nonsense or there a mistakes, please, correct me.
Mainland populations in Catalunya are highly endangered. Their density is lower than in southern France and much lower than in Menorca. Like in Almeria they concentrate in some areas.With such a low density, a summer fire or the collection of a single female can have a great impact. Regarding this last thing, there is no need to be an illegal collector that smuggles a huge quantity of animals to harm their populations. The collection of a single female can do that. In low density populations, this harm is even higher.
The populations in southern France are better, and in Menorca, they think they are increasing. It is curious, because the origin of the massive importations some decades ago, was Menorca. They not only recuperated but, somehow, in spite of tourism, urbanisations, etc, the populations are in one of their best moments of the last decades. The lack of many predators that the Girona populations have to lead with, might be part of the explanation (more than the 50% of the nests are predated).
Regarding the habitat, as Andy said, it is very different to the graeca´s habitat. Graeca´s habitat looks more like a steppe, while Hermannis habitat in Girona is more a scrubland. There are big trees: Pine trees and Quercus suber, the oak with whose bark they make the wine bottle corks; but the bush forest is the one that predominates . Walking in that habitat is not always a nice experience. The bramble that we find here is rubus ulmifolius, but there is also plenty of argelaga (calicotome spinosa) and gatosa (ulex parviflorus), also very spiny. You need to wear thick jeans to walk in that place, not bermuda shorts, never mind the heat.
There are the typical edible plants often mentioned in this forum , but the tortoises are also known to eat clematis and papavers rhoeas, mentioned as poisonous in some lists.
What they don´t touch are the very spread eupohorbias
Local people have told me some observations. These spring days the tortoises are active until midday, later if it is not a sunny day and also in late afternoon. Now there is food everywhere and they are spread in their territory.
In the summer months , there is only some activity at dawn. Then, local people have seen them cross a road. As soon as the sun rises, they disappear. Then most food is dry and they tend to concentrate in more covered places where there is some shade and still green food (e.g. near a stream)

Some more pictures:
The tortoise in the third picture was found in a grassy place. In fact, it was following the path she made that I found her

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These picture is of an abandoned field, but yellow flowers appear in many places. Maybe this is why this colous is said to attract them?

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Jordi


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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:31 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Southeast Spain
Jordi,
You mention tortoises eating poppy's and I have heard Marcos say that he has seen wild tortoises eating the petals. I have also given my tortoises a "few" petals and they seem to enjoy them. The variety is: papavers rhoeas.
I wonder again if these are OK?????
I am waiting for your, Marcos, and Andy's reply to this!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni habitat
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:54 pm
Posts: 268
Location: Catalonia, Spain
Graham, this is something that I also wonder:
In an article about testudo horsfieldii (Foraging behavior and diet of an ectothermic herbivore :testudo horsfieldii (Lagarde, Bonet...), they say they eat papaver family plants, but only the flowers, not the leaves, because of it chemical content (I think it was an alkaloid).
Before I read that I had given my horsfieldiis papaver rhoeas without apparent side effects, then I stopped.
The other day, in a place where they keep hatchlings for reintroduction purpouses, I saw they fed them all the plant, leaves included.
So, I suppose it is not very harmful if it is at all.
The question is, do wild ones, with all the offer of wild weeds that they have, also eat it?
Also interested in others opinion
Jordi


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